S5E37: SCOTUS Says "Screw Big Bend"

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Chris: Thank you, Joe, and welcome to 90 Miles from Needles. I am your host, Chris Clarke, and hello from Tucson, listeners. I am still on my trip that took me to El Paso and the Chihuahuan Desert Conference there, and then I slipped myself down to the Fort Davis–Marfa–Alpine area for a couple of days. We have some really good [00:01:00] episodes coming up that are based on interviews and conversations that I had last week there and in El Paso.

And then after I did all that, I went down to Big Bend so I could sit by the Rio Grande and just listen to it, smell the water, see some wildlife and some wildflowers, appreciate the horses wandering over from Boquillas, Mexico without passports. I was there on two consecutive afternoons, and during the second afternoon, as it turned out, while I was sitting on a rock next to the Rio Grande, the Supreme Court of the United States paved the way for the Department of Homeland Security to continue building their wall through the Big Bend sector. If they are successful in doing that, it will radically alter the nature of the entire place.

It'll change the hydrology, the economy. It'll deprive people of their livelihoods based on river running and ecotourism. It's just generally a bad idea, and it is just to accommodate a project that's based in misunderstanding and hatred with [00:02:00] no actual benefit to anybody except the people that are paid to build it.

And since I'm still traveling and I am without my studio, I was planning on not putting out an episode this week, but the Supreme Court made me. So rather than record an entire episode with the rudimentary equipment I have with me, I just wanted to bring to your attention again an episode that we recorded in April with Laiken Jordahl of the Center for Biological Diversity.

And in that interview, he talked about the Big Bend border wall issue as it stood in April. A couple of things have happened since that episode, one of which I've mentioned already, but just for the context. On October 2nd, Judge Kathleen Cardona of the Western District of Texas put a stay on construction of the border wall through the Big Bend sector, and this was in response to a lawsuit filed by the Center for Biological Diversity and community groups and a local river rafting business.

And this was a great victory. It was the first time I can think of that [00:03:00] anybody on our side had prevailed against the wall. And then, of course, on Monday the 9th of November, the Supreme Court put out an unsigned eight-to-one opinion lifting that stay, reversing Judge Cardona's order and saying that the threats to national security outweighed the threats to the environment.

The only dissenting justice was Ketanji Brown Jackson, so thank you for that, Justice Jackson. May your wisdom spread. So most of what I talked about with Laiken is still relevant. The opposition has only gotten fiercer in the interim. Whether I was in Marfa or Fort Davis or Alpine or Terlingua, opposition was just incredibly visible.

It was just stunning how many signs opposing the building of the wall were on every single building in Terlingua. People had even hauled shipping containers out to the road at the end of their driveway and spray-painted them with slogans opposing the wall. They were kinda hard to miss. So we're gonna keep following this issue.

We're gonna report on it more as the months and possibly years go by. [00:04:00] But for right now, and just so that we have an episode coming out with a bit of an update, let's refresh our memory with this replay of episode 10 of season five, our conversation with Laiken Jordahl from the Center for Biological Diversity on the attempts to stop a border wall from coming through the Big Bend sector.

We are thrilled to be joined in our virtual studio by Laiken Jordahl. Laiken is coming to us from Terlingua, Texas, which is reason for all of us to envy him right now. It's a great place. And in your role as borderlands campaigner at CBD, a couple years ago you and our mutual friend Kevin Dahl got into, uh, social media notice for documenting some saguaros being bulldozed in order to build that section of the wall.

That was some pretty upsetting footage, but thank you so much to you and Kevin both for making that possible so that people could see what was actually [00:05:00] going on.

Laiken: Yeah, it was such a heartbreaker in Arizona, and I think so much of the conviction that the community here in Big Bend feels is, like, they don't wanna see that happen here.

They don't wanna see their mountains dynamited and their native plants bulldozed and destroyed. We know what DHS is capable of, and that's exactly what we're fighting to stop out here.

Chris: So what are you fighting to stop out there?

Laiken: Yeah, so about a month ago, plans came out that the Department of Homeland Security was going to try to build a border wall through Big Bend National Park and Big Bend Ranch State Park.

They had quietly updated this online map that's now become somewhat infamous. The map's not official, to be clear. It's really rather meaningless, actually. We never had a map in Arizona. They just showed up with their dynamite crews and started butchering our desert landscape. So it's been interesting this time around to see them making these changes on this map, uh, activating the community.

Everybody, as soon as we saw that Big Bend National Park and the State Park were on the chopping block for [00:06:00] wall, I mean, there was mobilization out here like I have never seen anywhere along the border in all of my years organizing on this issue. Specifically, the opposition from conservative folks was remarkable.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Laiken: People come out to this region and fall in love with it, and they make their lives out here, uh, generally because of the rugged, remote, beautiful nature of the area. Most of the livelihoods of people out here depend on river outfitter businesses and other tourism. All of that would be threatened by the wall.

So we saw last month this incredible coalition bubble up from equestrian folks to all of the local sheriffs, including a number of very conservative Republicans who run and campaign on border security issues, and then of course, all the boaters, the granola hippies, the hunters, the anglers. This coalition that cropped up in truly probably the least populous part of the lower 48 has become a force to be reckoned with.

And we have seen [00:07:00] in recent weeks DHS is at least trying to change how they're marketing these plans because they're showing that they're paying attention. They're afraid of us.

Chris: I can guess what the more progressive folks are objecting to with this, and we can get into that, but what are the things that are motivating the conservative folks in the area to oppose wall construction?

Laiken: Yeah. So, you know, this is deep, deep, deep into the Chihuahuan Desert. This is an area you have to work hard to get to. And the folks out here, everyone is magnetized to the Rio Grande. It's the lifeblood for people, for nature, for everyone out here. Every single family that lives out here spends time on the banks of that river, and this proposal would cut off the community from access to their river.

And it's not just about recreation. Recreation is huge, but it's also about agriculture. There's a lot of landowners here who could be cut off from their agricultural equipment, their water pumps. I mean, how are they gonna get through the wall to serve and do maintenance on [00:08:00] their pumps? Border Patrol has had no answer for that, no plan whatsoever for that.

People in Texas are proud to be from Texas. This is an issue of Texan pride. This is an issue of don't tread on Texas. You know, all the protest signs out here say, "Come and take it." They say, "Don't tread on Big Bend." It's a very different character than what we've seen in other border wall fights because there is so much patriotism and care for this land and the natural heritage that it protects.

Chris: I've mentioned this in previous podcasts, but I was in that area at the beginning of the year a couple years ago, and, you know, the river was not high, but it was up. There was water in it. You know, the horses got their bellies wet walking across. But the fact was horses could get their bellies wet walking across, you know.

And it just struck me as what borders really ought to be. You know? Mm-hmm. I grew up on the U.S.–Canadian [00:09:00] border, and people would go across to get Chinese food or better beer than was available in Buffalo, New York in the 1970s. And that's really informed my notion of what a border is supposed to be. You know, a little bit of a hassle maybe, but, you know, people going back and forth without much in the way of restriction, and more of an ecotone, more of a boundary between two cultures or two landscapes. And it really struck me being around Boquillas, which is sort of towards the south end of Big Bend National Park, but across the river, that this is like the idealized version of what the U.S.–Mexican ecotone could be.

I mean, people walking across. There is a border station on the U.S. side that theoretically you're supposed to go through, and most people do. But at the same time, there's folks selling empanadas at the trailheads that, you know, were made across the border two [00:10:00] hours beforehand.

Laiken: Yeah.

Chris: You know, just friendliness and the whole trumped-up, pun not really intended, uh, antagonism about people on the other side of the border is just not there.

Yeah.

Laiken: No. And I don't think people understand just how deeply connected communities on both sides of the border are here. We've got a group of firefighters from Boquillas, Mexico who are the first responders to fires in the national park often. Mm-hmm. They regularly send their crews over, and they have stopped the spread of extreme grass fires, structure fires.

We depend on them for our safety. And similar, you know, similar issues when it comes to the eradication of invasive species like Arundo donax, carrizo cane. You can't just treat one side of the river and expect that to work.

Chris: Yeah.

Laiken: There's so much collaboration here, and of course, there are families that have been on both sides of the border for many, many, many generations.

And like you were kinda getting at, like in nature, it's these [00:11:00] borderlands, it's these ecotones that have the highest amount of biodiversity. They're the most interesting places. They're the places that I've always gravitated towards in my life. You know, where the desert meets the mountains.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Laiken: Uh, that's where you just have incredible explosion of life.

And I think the same goes for human society. Depending on our neighbors is important. Like when I worked at the park here, we would go over and shop in Ojinaga and Chihuahua, and it was an amazing experience. And like, yeah, the beer was cheaper and the food was better. But it was also just such an incredible cultural experience to go through the port of entry, drive over the bridge, speak a different language, and then drive back through the state park, crack open one of those cold beers, sit in the river and watch the sunset, uh, before making it back to park housing at night.

I mean, it doesn't get any better than that. And like this place really did inform me, like what the border could be.

Chris: How would a border wall change that?

Laiken: [00:12:00] So if the border wall went up through the national park, it would effectively end all river trips, all commercial boating, all private trips, uh, that happen here, that sustain the local economy.

And about a month ago, the DHS map indicated that that's exactly what they were pushing for, and they had already had engineers map out the course for that wall. So they have backtracked on that, but they haven't made any sort of official statements. They have an unlimited amount of money to build this thing.

You know, we're still gonna have almost three more years of this administration, and they have unlimited pockets. None of the normal laws apply. Nothing is stopping them except for us, so we have to stay vigilant here. They backtracked on the national park plans, or so they say, right? And then they were just targeting the state park and then all of the private land, uh, upstream of the state park.

But even if they did that, they would be walling off the public to the most publicly [00:13:00] loved swimming holes, trailheads, river stretches. Also, lots of common boat put-ins. So all of a sudden you'd have a wall between you and the river. We'd be ceding all of this land, the land that people think is, you know, the most important land in this region, to Mexico.

It'd be on the wrong side of the wall. I don't think that's gonna go over very well with Texans, you know?

Chris: Didn't Texans fight a war to get that land from Mexico?

Laiken: I think, yeah, we should revisit some of that history here. I think the most well-known landmark in Texas might have something to do with that.

Joe Geoffrey: Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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Chris: For this episode's offering from our friend Fred Bell, nature recordist extraordinaire, Fred writes, "As the season changes, there's a lot of things that tell us desert rats that we have survived another hot summer: the longer shadows from the sun, the shorter days, and the cooler temperatures.

For me, it's hearing the wispy little song of the white-crowned sparrow. They migrate down from cooler climates to spend the winter in our warm parks and backyards." This recording was made at the China Ranch date farm in Tecopa, California, and was accompanied by a noisy conspiracy of ravens picking some of the leftover dates. [00:15:00] [00:16:00]

Joe Geoffrey: You're listening to 90 Miles from Needles, the Desert Protection Podcast. When you've used half your water, it's time to turn around.

Chris: Back to our chat with Laiken Jordahl of the Center for Biological Diversity. You mentioned that the Trump administration and DHS are not constrained by laws as they build this stuff.

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Laiken: Yeah. So they have already waived 28 of our nation's most important environmental and cultural resource protection laws. That means that the Endangered Species Act does not apply to the stretch of river where they waived the law, which includes the state park.

They've also waived dozens of contracting and procurement laws, which doesn't sound very interesting, but all of a sudden you [00:17:00] realize, whoa, this means there's no oversight. This means there's no public, uh, information available about these contracts. It sets the stage for one of the biggest grifts, one of the biggest thefts of taxpayer funds that we've seen.

Some of these border wall contractors, I mean, they're making billions of dollars. These families have become billionaires. So all of the normal laws that would apply to these projects are out the window. That means that these walls will go up with no meaningful monitoring of the impact to wildlife, to cultural sites.

In Arizona, we've seen the blasting of indigenous sacred sites with no cultural resource monitors on hand, no tribal liaison folks even notified. It's horrifying. And that has also included the evisceration of critical habitat for endangered species, which, you know, normally DHS would have to consult carefully with the Fish and Wildlife Service.

They would have to consult other experts. They would have to put these plans to public comment where they would actually have to respond to the issues that we've raised. [00:18:00] The whole project would take, you know, it would drag on because this is a major infrastructure project with so many impacts. So all this, all that's off the books and they're moving forward with none of those safeguards.

Chris: We had Rick LoBello from El Paso Zoo on a couple of episodes ago, and he was talking about the cross-border cooperative management in the area, and he mentioned things, well, like the black bears that have come across the river in recent decades and reinhabited Big Bend National Park. And of course, um, you know, jaguars and wolves are two really big and notable—I mean, literally big species that are involved here.

I'm curious whether there are species of concern in the river itself, you know, for more than the few seconds it takes to walk across. I recognize that the Rio Bravo, Rio Grande has been really impacted by development and agricultural diversion and [00:19:00] climate change and all that kind of thing, but are there the equivalents of the, uh, you know, the chubs and such that are in the Colorado River that we're concerned about here with wall construction?

Laiken: Yeah. I mean, the Rio Grande, it's really a river in recovery, and we have an opportunity to restore this river and allow for the recovery of so many native species. There are still tons of species of native turtles and fish.

The Rio Grande silvery minnow is still in certain stretches here. Rare, but has historically been in the park. And then further downstream, we've got endangered species of mussels like the Texas hornshell that are actively being threatened by the installation of border buoys and the operation of heavy equipment in the Rio Grande down south.

But I think ecologically speaking, the riparian zone in the desert is always the most biologically important place. And when you wall off half of access to that zone, you're walling wildlife off from their only reliable source of drinking water. And [00:20:00] these animals have learned through evolution, I mean, they have historical memories of how to find water when it's hot and dry.

They know what they're doing. And as climate change progresses, as our summers get so much hotter and drier, I mean, I think we will certainly see the bodies of wildlife piling up against the wall, stuck on the wrong side of it, dying of thirst, unable to access the river.

Chris: We talked a little bit about the response from locals, and I remember seeing a really impressive clip on social media of a demonstration in Terlingua which I didn't know there were that many people in Terlingua.

Seemed like 150% of the population turned out.

Laiken: Yeah, we've seen exactly that in towns all across the region, you know, in Presidio, in Marfa, in these very small places. Pack a theater with standing room only. It's been amazing. But yeah, people are... You know, these are atypical organizing networks. These are not professional organizers.

These are not paid NGO actors. These are people fighting for their livelihoods. [00:21:00] These are people fighting with everything they've got because they are so in love with this place, they can't imagine it not existing like this, and I think that's why it's been so nonpartisan. I think it's activated a ton of people who have lost faith in the traditional political system, both the left and the right.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Laiken: Uh, it's really spreading just through the community like wildfire. There's a number of social media accounts who are trying to carry that energy out of the region, because a lot of people here don't even use social media. I would recommend everybody follow NoBigBendWall on Instagram. That's kind of the hub for a lot of this organizing.

Chris: Yep, seconded.

Laiken: Um, yeah. But, you know, it's like people out here depend on each other. They're talking to their neighbors. A lot of the local organizing happens at the watering hole called The Boathouse Saloon. A fantastic establishment. And yeah, I mean, you go out for a beer in this town to one of the very fine establishments, every single bartender is wearing a No Al Muro hat.

No to the wall. Every single person who works service in this town [00:22:00] is telling each and every one of the people who comes in to buy a burrito or a beer or whatever, everything about this project, and that is a really effective way of organizing. It's kinda old school, you know? It's really refreshing to see this all happening, like, via word of mouth.

Mm-hmm. And it's got a different flavor, and I think that's why it's seemingly so successful, and that's why I actually have a lot of faith, you know. For the first time in all of the border wall battles that I've fought over the years, and I've lost all the prior ones, this one I really think that we can change the course of history, so we are throwing everything we can at this thing.

And this place, you know, Big Bend is just unlike anywhere else on the border. It has always been, to me, the one place on the U.S.–Mexico border that is just too grand to mess up, and it was the one place I always thought would be safe from these absurd proposals to build a wall. But the current political moment, it's so theatrical.

I just can't believe that we're actually here fighting for this.

Chris: Yeah. It strikes me the whole area [00:23:00] itself is kind of a barrier that, you know, you have these deep canyons that basically prevent crossing the river for huge stretches of miles. And I mean, Boquillas is the one spot I'm familiar with, and I know that if you were a migrant from Central America or from Africa or, you know, somebody coming up from the south, Boquillas would not be a place you would choose to cross just because it's so hard to get to on the other side.

I suspect it's, to a lesser extent, it's also true for places like Ojinaga and, you know, other spots on the Mexican side of the border. Has there been feedback or opinions expressed on the south side of the border about this construction? I expect people in Boquillas in particular are pretty worried because they absolutely rely on people coming across.

Laiken: Yeah, I mean, Boquillas is, it's a tiny hamlet that basically exists as an outpost of the huge [00:24:00] Mexican protected areas. Big Bend is massive, right? Big Bend, uh, National Park and State Park make up over a million acres. We've got more than two million acres of protected rugged land just across the border in Mexico.

Completely roadless wilderness with incredible mountains with aspens and pine on them. These are where the bears cross back over to reestablish in the Chisos, and that beautiful story of hope that it just conveys how interconnected we are here. But yeah, if a migrant wanted to cross through the Big Bend region, especially if they wanted to cross through the state or national parks, they would have to hike for probably five or six days in Mexico before they even got to Santa Elena or Mariscal Canyon where they would have to then rappel down these sheer cliffs, ford the river, climb up another canyon wall, and then walk for probably 70 or 80 miles because there are internal checkpoints from every road leading out of Big Bend.

All of us have to go through these checkpoints, and they [00:25:00] search your car, they ask if you're a citizen, they talk to you, they ask you questions. And there's a gauntlet of surveillance towers and other surveillance systems. This place—it's never been a hotspot for crossing. Even when we had record-breaking border crossing numbers in 2020, hardly anybody was crossing through here, especially in the parks.

And you might look at data, CBP and Department of Homeland Security, they say that this is an area of, quote-unquote, "high illegal entry." We've had about 150 people cross the border in the entire Big Bend sector, which is 517 miles of border with Mexico.

Chris: Wow.

Laiken: That's six people crossing the border a day on this entire regional stretch.

Like, it's not an exaggeration to say that nobody is crossing through the state park and the national park. All of those crossings are happening in areas where there are closer population centers, where it's a lot easier to cross. There was no logical justification to even consider building a wall here, and [00:26:00] yet we find ourselves fighting it.

Chris: You were just on a bit of a river trip, and on social media you mentioned that you might be one of the last people able to do this. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that trip and what you saw and why you might be an endangered species of people that have been able to run this stretch of the river?

Laiken: It's just unbelievable to think that this group that we went with could be the last group to run that stretch of river because water levels are dropping rapidly. We were running at about 70 CFS in canoes, so we were bumping and scraping along. It was a great time. It was pretty thrilling. It's a good way to make flat sections interesting.

But yeah, water levels are dropping. This summer it's gonna be basically unrunnable. They're saying they're moving forward with construction this summer. So even if they don't target the state park immediately, they're gonna start walling off land just to the north of the state park, which is where we put in.

This beautiful town called Redford. It's the gateway community to the state park. Not a lot of residents, just a few ranches, but some great places to put boats in the water [00:27:00] and float down into the state park. It was pretty surreal to think about that reality, and we went out with our friend Billy, who was here, and he's the one who really keyed us into that fact.

He's like, "This is probably the last time, unless we fight this thing and win, which we intend to do, but there's a world where this would be the last time that I get to run this stretch of river." And that was from his own property, from his own land that is directly in the path of the wall. That's where we put in.

So people like him, they stand to lose everything. Everything. Not just their jobs, but their land too, their access to the water too. And many of these folks, their families have been here for generations, and I think if this project moves forward, Terlingua will again turn into a real ghost town because there won't be industry here, and people aren't gonna wanna stick around and watch their communities be invaded by construction workers, and man camps go up in the desert.

You know, this town runs out of gas regularly. Like, where are these guys gonna fill up their construction vehicles and their trucks? Where are they gonna get their [00:28:00] water? People's wells are going dry. So yeah, these folks, you know, like I said, they have everything to fight for. They're fighting like their lives depend on it, because they do.

Chris: What can people do that are hearing this? I mean, some people that may have been to Big Bend, or at least as far as Marfa, driving past the DHS blimps between El Paso and Marfa. There are probably some people who have never been there, never heard of Big Bend, or maybe had it on their bucket list, you know, below Niagara Falls or something like that, but

Laiken: Mm-hmm.

Chris: what can people out in the world do to help the folks in the Big Bend area keep this wall from happening?

Laiken: Well, for one, definitely follow the No Big Bend Wall Coalition. They have a bunch of great action items out there, and I think what they put out really matches the unique character of this fight.

But secondly, if people have the opportunity, just come experience this place for yourself. Because once you see the grandeur, the remoteness, the rugged beauty of this region, there's [00:29:00] no way you're not gonna fight like hell to protect it. So to anybody with the means, come on out. Everyone here would love to show you around and talk your ear off about the importance of fighting this thing.

We're also making a number of different pushes, including one to Congress for them to actively restrict the use of all federal funds for wall construction here in Big Bend. We just did a big sign-on letter that had 132 different national organizations, as well as local Terlingua businesses urging Congress to do that.

There is a fix here. If we restrict the use of all federal funds from being used for wall construction here, we take away their purse, and that will be huge. So we'll continue to push on that. We were hopeful that we'd get a little more traction before Congress went into recess, but we've met with a number of members of Congress who are actively talking to other offices and pushing this thing.

Talk to your friends and family about it. And, and I do think, you know, it's important to fight wall construction as it proliferates across all of our beautiful desert landscapes, and all the way down in the Rio [00:30:00] Grande Valley as well. But this is different. Like, the attack on a place that has such wild rural character, a place that we can actually fight this thing back, I think, uh, even folks who you might not expect to oppose wall construction maybe in other places, they'll get fired up about this too.

It's a completely, uh, not bipartisan. I would, I would call it a nonpartisan issue, 'cause it pisses off everyone.

Chris: Yep. So further, in order to keep you from getting the side eye from your development and comms folks at CBD, how can people find what you and CBD are doing on this and other border issues?

Laiken: Yeah. Well, certainly do join our email lists. But also, I post every day, sometimes multiple times a day, especially when I'm out here. I'm kinda based between Terlingua and Tucson right now. But yeah, I'm always posting on my socials. I'm still on that godforsaken website of Twitter. We don't wanna use the other word.

But I also have been doing a lot more on Instagram, [00:31:00] realizing that that's where things are happening. And I'm on Facebook as well. I just made that public, so I sanitized my prior timeline enough to go public, and here I am because Big Bend is worth it.

Chris: Yep. Laiken Jordahl, thank you so much for joining us.

This has been a really important and unexpectedly optimistic conversation, though we clearly have a lot of work to do, but I'm just very grateful to you for joining us.

Laiken: Amen. My pleasure. Big fan of your work. We can win this thing, but the fight's not even close to over, so stay involved.

Chris: Thanks again to Laiken Jordahl for joining us back in April.

Look in the show notes for ways that you can contribute to the campaign to keep the wall out of the Big Bend area. And before I close this laptop motel room episode, I want to briefly thank Kay St. Peters and Chris Miller for becoming new donors. Kay and Chris, thank you so much. If you want to join Kay and Chris [00:32:00] in becoming supporters of 90 Miles from Needles and the Desert Advocacy Media Network, you can go to 90milesfromneedles.com/donate and pick a size and frequency of donation that makes sense to you.

This weekend, I am going to be spending time in the Pinacate volcanic field in northern Sonora, Mexico with some friends. It's the first time I will have been there, and I've been looking forward to it for around 40 years, actually. And there's been just a whole heck of a lot of rain in the Southwest in the last few days, so it may not be too long before I see you at the next watering hole.

Joe Geoffrey: And that brings us to the end of this episode of 90 Miles from Needles, the Desert Protection Podcast. You can find show notes for this episode, along with links and background, at 90milesfromneedles.com. We're also on social media. [00:33:00] You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Bluesky, and Threads. Just search for 90 Miles from Needles.

And if you'd like a more direct line, you can reach us on Signal at A90MFN.67. If you'd like to support the show, you can make a donation of whatever size and frequency feels right to you at 90milesfromneedles.com/donate. Listener support is what makes this podcast possible. Our voiceover is by Joe Geoffrey.

Podcast artwork is by Martín Mancha. Nature sounds are recorded by Fred Bell. Our theme song, Moody Western, is by Bright Side Studio, with additional music licensed from independent artists.

Chris: Other music in this episode is by PremiumBeat [00:34:00].

Joe Geoffrey: A production of the Desert Advocacy Media [00:35:00] Network.

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