S5E29: Why Was the North Kaibab Trail Still Open?

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Chris Clarke: This episode is made possible by listeners just like you, and by:

[00:00:05] CMC Ad: Copper Mountain College, a proud sponsor of this episode of 90 Miles from Needles, the Desert Protection Podcast.

[00:00:13] Joe Dana: People wanted everything open fast, and they wanted to be able to say, "The canyon's fully open for all hiking. We are, you know, moving past the Dragon Bravo fire."

[00:00:24] You know, it's a- there's, there's always that feeling. It's like, you know, when you see people after a, a hurricane or something, and they say, "We're gonna rebuild. We're gonna rebuild." Sometimes you think, "Well, wait. Should we rebuild right there?" Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we should think twice.

[00:00:44] Joe Geoffrey: You think the deserts are barren wastelands? Think again

[00:00:54] It's time for 90 Miles From Needles, the desert protection podcast[00:01:00]

[00:01:04] Chris Clarke: Thank you, Joe Geoffrey, and welcome to 90 Miles from Needles. I'm your host, Chris Clarkee, and with this episode, frequent listeners might look at the description and say, "Didn't they just do something on flooding in the Grand Canyon, like, last week?" And we did. The episode was entitled Four Things You Need to Know About the Grand Canyon Flooding, and it is not our practice to revisit a topic in an episode that immediately follows one on the same topic.

[00:01:31] But after we put that episode to bed last week, journalist Joe Dana of 12 News in Phoenix uncovered some really interesting background that had to do with National Park Service management and policy after the Dragon Bravo fire and before the flooding. The issue at hand is a fairly stark example of a tension built into the National Park Service's mission.

[00:01:52] NPS is charged with conserving park landscapes and wildlife unimpaired, but it is also charged with providing [00:02:00] for their public enjoyment. Now, a lot of the time these goals can coexist, but on the North Kaibab Trail after the Dragon Bravo fire, they may butt heads. Protecting visitors and workers and a damaged landscape may require restricting the very public access the Park Service also exists to provide.

[00:02:19] So we reached out to Joe Dana, and he agreed to talk with us, and that interview is in this episode. I think you're gonna like it. Before we get to it, though, really quickly, wanna thank Wendy Campbell for being our newest donor. You can be like Wendy if you go to 90milesfromneedles.com/donate and pick a size and frequency of donation that makes sense to you.

[00:02:40] And that is all the ado I have. So with none further, let's get to our interview with Joe Dana of 12 News in Phoenix, Arizona[00:03:00]

[00:03:16] We are very lucky to have in the studio with us Joe Dana, who is a journalist working out of Phoenix, Arizona, very well known to Phoenician listeners, on TV 12?

[00:03:27] Joe Dana: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 12 News, the NBC affiliate. So this week actually will be my 25th year. I, I, uh, started in Flagstaff with a, with a sister affiliate station with 12.

[00:03:39] So I was in Flagstaff for a couple years when I was out of college.

[00:03:43] Chris Clarke: What's your general beat?

[00:03:46] Joe Dana: You know, these days I cover the environment a lot, public school, immigration, and it's interesting because in Phoenix, we've been at the center of two or three big topics over several [00:04:00] years, and I think it was our, one of our former senators, Kyrsten Sinema, she once joked that Arizona is like a meth lab of democracy, and it is true.

[00:04:08] We tr-we try bold new ideas, you know, and just see what happens. And so, you know, we've been out front with, you know, the way we crafted many laws related to immigration 10, 15 years ago, public schooling and the way we're using public dollars now to give to families for private purposes. I cover a lot of that.

[00:04:28] And then I also do just features and a few slice of life stories. I try to get up to the North Country, Flagstaff, Grand Canyon when I can. It's always a nice break. Of course, it's completely different tone when you're up there for something like this.

[00:04:41] Chris Clarke: Yeah, and you've been kept busy with the August 29th flood.

[00:04:45] Yeah.

[00:04:46] Joe Dana: It was just so devastating. And, you know, as a, as a Boy Scout, I remember the first time I, like, truly felt the presence of something bigger than me, something divine, and I was, [00:05:00] I was in Phantom Ranch. I'd woken up one morning. I remember looking way up there on the top of the hills and the peaks, seeing, you know, those trees that were snowy.

[00:05:09] And at the bottom, we had pretty warm weather and, like, you know, the climate change alone in that area because we were so deep, it, it was pretty astounding. And just there was just this sense of reverence, and it just-- it definitely made an imprint on me. And so I've tried to go back to the Grand Canyon over the years.

[00:05:27] But seeing what happened to that area, I mean, it's just-- it's such a treasure for so many people. Yeah. But we've always known Phantom Ranch was right there on that basin, right at the mouth of a, of a slot canyon, you know. And so we have always known that's a place that's vulnerable for flooding.

[00:05:43] Chris Clarke: Right.

[00:05:44] Joe Dana: Right? Not the best place to put a, a campground like that, though we went, we went over a century with, what? A couple of big floods. This was certainly now one of the top two or three.

[00:05:56] Chris Clarke: Yeah, I had a, an experience very similar to yours in [00:06:00] '05, I think, though I was far too old to be a Boy Scout at that point.

[00:06:04] And just waking up, lying on the ground in the campground, Bright Angel Campground right there, and seeing the-

[00:06:11] Joe Dana: Similar ...

[00:06:11] Chris Clarke: seeing the ridgeline and, yeah, it's, it was probably four in the morning when I woke up and, uh, just gazed around for a while and said, "You gotta remember this for the rest of your life."

[00:06:22] That's the one time I've been down at the bottom of the canyon, and my friends and I did hike up into the box, and I

[00:06:27] Joe Dana: Mm-hmm

[00:06:28] Chris Clarke: I was v-very much aware that it would not be a great place to be in certain weather conditions. Yeah. Definitely been following it pretty closely, but, but you have, in the days since the flood and the barrage of attention from global news outlets, you've broken a story that has the potential to be pretty important, I think, about the internal workings of the Park Service prior to the flood.

[00:06:53] Do you wanna give us the- Yeah ... the précis there?

[00:06:56] Joe Dana: Sure. And I, I... Yeah, so on 12news.com, you, you can find [00:07:00] this story. You could just probably Google keywords like, you know, supervisor, trail, Grand Canyon, 12 News. I think there's two layers to it. One is there's always tension between people on the ground in a, in a wilderness area, any national park probably, or a lot of them at least.

[00:07:19] Those on the ground who are with the Park Service, and they see certain risks and dangers. And, and it's their job to bring those to the top to, you know, make sure the decision-makers know this is what you're dealing with. And so on the other side, management, park's leadership, Department of Interior, they also wanna make sure that access is a priority, and the public can see it, that there's ways to, you know, keep money flowing through there to make the Park Service the revenue that they want to, to, you know, put money back into a lot of these programs as well.

[00:07:56] And so that tension, I think, is probably always there. [00:08:00] Mm. And I'm sure there have been lots of discussions over the years, either related to Grand Canyon or other places, and we never hear about them because decisions get made, and then you all move on. In this case, though, you know, because of the significance of the fire, the Dragon Bravo Fire There's another layer here, and you had the park's trails supervisor present to leadership in the fall of last year his basic accounting of what happened, what he saw on the ground with the fire.

[00:08:27] And he said, "Look, you know, we've got so much-- We have so many unknowns and so much destruction, you know, with the, the wildfire that it burns so hot it can weaken rock structures, cliffs, ledges, and then of course it burns roots and systems of roots deep underground, and that also creates a level of instability.

[00:08:49] And then it obviously burns vegetation that normally would soak up rain, and it changes the soil, so the soil will actually repel rain." And he said, "You know, there are so [00:09:00] many unknowns here," and this was so devastating. He said, "I've s- I've already seen debris flows in, in at least one or two spots where I'd never seen f- the force of it like anything here.

[00:09:11] And, and that's before even we're getting into the summer or spring, you know?" And he said his recommendation was to just keep the cl- keep the, keep the trail closed, the North Kaibab Trail, that trailhead at the top from the North Rim closed. And so a source who spoke to me who was concerned about how everything eventually played out provided a lot of these details.

[00:09:32] A second source confirmed generally the details. And, and then we would later hear that park supervisor actually go onto a podcast, the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude podcast, in February, March of this year, to say some of the same things but not be so specific or, or so direct, you know, to say it needs to be closed.

[00:09:51] But he certainly, you could tell in the way he answered questions, he w- he still did not agree that this trail should be open, right? [00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Chris Clarke: Here is a very short snippet from that March fourth episode of the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude podcast. It's an excellent podcast. Definitely recommend you check it out. In this particular snippet, Grand Canyon National Park Trail Supervisor Adam Gibson talks with podcast host Brian Speciale.

[00:10:18] Look in our show notes for a link to the complete episode.

[00:10:21] Adam Gibson: One thing it is clear to me is, is when we do have rain events up there, that, that, that is gonna be a more hostile area than users are gonna be used to. There are gonna be heightened levels of risk associated with using that trail moving forward, I think for the next several years than p- than there have been in years, in years past.

[00:10:42] And there's no way that all the hazards are gonna be able to mitigate, that everything's gonna be mitigated out there. It's just not r- realistic.

[00:10:51] Brian Speciale: What do you mean by that, by mitigated? You mean you can't get everything back to the way it was essentially?

[00:10:55] Adam Gibson: No. It's, it's, time's gonna have to do that.

[00:10:58] Recovery's gonna have to [00:11:00] do that.

[00:11:01] Joe Dana: And the two big reasons, rock falls and slides in the top half mainly, and then flash flooding at the bottom half, and debris flows, right? So But according to the source, this part of this story, you know, they have an about eight or 10 primary leaders there, and the supervisors took all this in.

[00:11:24] They said not one person in that room disagreed. Mm-hmm. And it was generally, it was generally agreed that that would be the best route to go, and they wanted to also sort of reimagine areas of the North Rim and this trail for long term, for a lack of water, for the climate ahead, and perhaps redevelop some of it, also create new types of opportunities business-wise to support those businesses up there.

[00:11:49] But, but the idea is like they... everyone sort of realizes something will need to shift. They're gonna need to shift the way they view this entire area because of the changes we're seeing. [00:12:00] And so now according to this source, and I don't know how strongly maybe others felt in, in this leadership level of people- Mm-hmm

[00:12:08] Washington, D.C., Congress members, senators from both parties put a lot of pressure to just get everything open. And that's not a surprise. People wanted everything open fast, and they wanted to be able to say, "The canyon's fully open for all hiking. We are, you know, moving past the Dragon Bravo Fire." You know, it's a-- there's, there's always that feeling.

[00:12:28] It's like, you know, when you see people after a, a hurricane or something, and they say, "We're gonna rebuild. We're gonna rebuild." Sometimes you think, "Well, wait. Should we rebuild right there?" Yeah. "I don't know. Maybe we should think twice." So that's how it all played out. And, and, and frankly, concerns among supervisors, more than one, were they didn't wanna send their own staff on this trail day in and day out.

[00:12:48] There are toxin exposure issues with what the fire uncovered and produced along those areas, concerns about lack of water and hygiene, and then also flooding, [00:13:00] rockslides, and then the overall integrity of the trail. And if you've been on this, on the North Kaibab Trail, 14 miles, it is... it's unbelievable, right?

[00:13:09] And it hugs up against these massive walls thousands of feet in the air above the canyon floor, kind of goes under certain ledges and, and then down deep into these canyons, like the Box Canyon that you remember. And there's some pretty narrow, tight areas there and And so there is a general feeling, and I interviewed a lot of people 'cause I didn't, I didn't wanna sound like we were being too alarmist, but there is a general feeling that a full season or a good monsoon, what it does is it allows a lot of that stuff to settle.

[00:13:38] And if there are, you know, precarious spots, those will sort of get loosened up and shaken out when you have snows, rains, and you have a full season. And so the source said essentially that, you know, the s- the superintendent had made the decision to just open up the entire thing. [00:14:00] And if you look at the news release even from March, April, May, when they opened up the entire trail again, the news release is, is surprisingly simple and basic.

[00:14:10] It doesn't say one thing about, you know, heightened risks. The only acknowledgement of the fire that had happened was they just said, "If you're on the trail, there may be some delays because there will be crews working different parts of it." And this trail's supervisor, who gave his recommendation in the fall and then appeared on a podcast in, in February, March, you know, he said if his boss, who he would respect the decision of, made the decision to open it all up, he would expect there will be a robust, you know, education campaign and, you know, clear messaging to people to say, "Okay, this is gonna be a little bit of a different kind of year.

[00:14:45] Use extra precaution." And from everything we could tell, there wasn't really that message. And so, you know, when you talk about, okay, people deciding to go through, they always know they're taking a certain risk. Mother Nature always has the final word. But [00:15:00] it's, it's a question of could the Park Service have at least educated hikers heading in there more about what they could face, especially as you entered into the monsoon.

[00:15:11] Joe Geoffrey: Don't go away. We'll be right back.

[00:15:15] CMC Ad: Copper Mountain College is a proud sponsor of 90 Miles From Needles. Located in Joshua Tree in the Mojave Desert, Copper Mountain College serves the communities of the high desert with a broad range of programs, from desert studies and the popular Wildland Fire Academy to nursing, EMT, water technology, and many more programs.

[00:15:36] Copper Mountain College provides direct transfer programs to California State University and the University of California, as well as career technical education. Learn more at cmccd.edu. Go Fighting Cacti.

[00:15:52] Chris Clarke: For this week's nature recording offering from our friend Fred Bell, Fred writes, "This is just a bubbly little stream [00:16:00] in central Nevada accompanied by a singing warbler."[00:17:00]

[00:17:23] Joe Geoffrey: You're listening to 90 Miles From Needles, the Desert Protection podcast. The first mile of a desert hike is the hardest, and so is the last mile

[00:17:37] Joe Dana: Two people dead, one's still missing, and that is terrible and tragic. Mm-hmm. But you also had 80 people rescued, right? Yeah. And, and we've, we've talked to several people who say they thought they were going to die.

[00:17:49] I mean, I had an experienced hiker who, who manufactures outdoor gear up there, been there a l- forever, right? Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] And he said he headed off the trail. He was a mile and a half down Saturday morning with a friend, and they got a permit. He was gonna be there a couple nights. He said when everything hit, he said, "I, I was holding on for my dear life on tree roots," you know, as, as this flood was awash, and he said it was just raining rocks and hail and mud, and, you know, he...

[00:18:24] It was a harrowing experience.

[00:18:26] Chris Clarke: Yeah.

[00:18:26] Joe Dana: We, we have heard some of those other stories. I, I think we were very fortunate not to hear of more severe injuries or deaths really. And so, so, so it sounds like, you know, there are some questions to ask, and there are certainly questions too about the chain of command and, and why certain decisions were made.

[00:18:47] And, and there's an overall, you know, as this is not me breaking any news, there's overall many questions about leadership in the National Park Service and morale-

[00:18:57] Chris Clarke: Right ...

[00:18:57] Joe Dana: and concerns that staff [00:19:00] have from the bottom up

[00:19:01] Chris Clarke: Yeah, it's a very strange context overall, and one of the things that I found myself wondering as I was seeing your coverage was that- Mm-hmm

[00:19:11] you know, in my last gig as, uh, California Desert Program D-Director for the National Parks Conservation Association, I remember quite a few times where there was question about whether or not to keep something open either for resource protection or do you let people go into a place that is at critical wildfire risk or during the, the shutdowns we've had rangers not allowed to go out and protect people.

[00:19:39] Do you keep the parks open and just cross your fingers, or do you close things up and let people know that because of staffing shortages it's not safe for them to be there, or it's not safe for the park to have them there? And this particular interior department has taken a very dim view of those kinda [00:20:00] closures.

[00:20:00] My sense was for reasons of optics rather than any other sort of management concern. Do you get a sense that there's anything like that at play here, or is it too soon to say, or?

[00:20:13] Joe Dana: It is connected in that, you know, two months ago before wildfire season really got going here, three months ago I was up in Flagstaff and, and I spoke to several people affiliated with the Forest Service and Parks and did a couple stories in preparation for wildfire season.

[00:20:30] And I heard some of the same concerns. Again, just by sheer numbers, you know, if you're seeing cut 20 to 30% of staff, whether they're furloughed out and it's people pushed, pushed out 'cause they weren't there a, a, a full year, and then they're not replacing positions, right? Immediately you have all of this strain.

[00:20:50] I spoke to a couple people within the Forest Service, one, one who had left who is now with a nonprofit up there doing other work, and you know, they, they painted a really [00:21:00] dire view of morale and climate there. And so, you know, I know there was a feeling that it was maybe some optics to be able to-- simply be s- for the administration to be able to say they're cutting bloat and- downsizing government, right?

[00:21:18] Mm-hmm. I think, I think that, that was the view that that was the number one motive, and I think it's been said publicly pretty much that that's what it was, and we've now seen a lot of new reporting about DOGE, what they actually did, and what the actual results have been, and they're-- you know, the administration's backtracking on some of these cuts, and I, I think, you know, there's an acknowledgement that some of these decisions they made have had a lot of unintended consequences.

[00:21:41] So in terms of, though, forest wildfire, land management, people in all those communities, yes, I mean, I think they always feel like politics takes over their jobs too much. But I think there, there was a feeling that, you know, this- Yeah ... this era we're in is completely different.

[00:21:59] Chris Clarke: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:59] Joe Dana: [00:22:00] And you did have a few people who said, "Look, over time, this may be better if Washington follows through on the end goal."

[00:22:07] And the end goal was to actually try to give more flexibility and more resources to the rangers and the people that are on the ground. And I, I can't say I've had people tell me that's happening yet, and I think a lot of people are skeptical that will ever happen. Right. But there was that concern. And, and then in terms of access, 'cause you mentioned access versus protection, you know, something that was emphasized to me is Even though this trail is difficult, and it's rated, I think, very difficult by the Park Service with their, with their system because of the, you know, it's what, five or six thousand feet down, and you gotta be, you gotta be ready for it in good shape and, and a good hiker, right?

[00:22:51] Chris Clarke: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:51] Joe Dana: It's still categorized as a corridor. It's still categorized as a high-maintained trail that is built for high traffic, [00:23:00] and mules, and the public. And so there's also an expectation that, that this is not s- you know, a trail that you have to, like, do, do the preparation for as if you're going in the backwoods, and you're, you're gonna have a lot of unpredictable situations.

[00:23:15] You know, this is... It's got these, you know, excellent stone structures throughout, and it's, you know, just built up with the retaining walls and everything else. So that, there's that aspect that, you know, that there was an expectation of that. And if you're living in Sweden or some other country, and you think about it, you book going to the canyon, you wanna do this trail, you've read about it on websites, you may not know anything about the Dragon Bravo Fire.

[00:23:39] You may not know anything or much about, you know, some of the nuances of how the trail could've been affected. All you see is that it's open, and you take your family down or whatever. And so, I mean, you had a lot of people going through there this past summer who just were oblivious to the heightened flash flood risk and potentially some other structural [00:24:00] risks or rock slide risk.

[00:24:01] And, and they had a lot of emergencies. They always get, you know, I think it's in the hundreds of dehydration emergencies, you know, for the year- Mm-hmm ... in the canyon. But you had a lot of others too, some rescues, and two or three people die of dehydration. And so, you know, a lot of that was happening, and so i- it's, it's worth, it's worth asking, you know, sh- should a lot of these people, you know, been, been more prepared or informed so that maybe they got the access?

[00:24:25] 'Cause you want e- as much as possible give people access. But you weren't, you know, putting people in unnecessary harm.

[00:24:31] Chris Clarke: Yep. And it is very important to remember, I think, that this is not an unusually deadly year for the Grand Canyon if you take all the different visitor-

[00:24:40] Joe Dana: Statistics ...

[00:24:41] Chris Clarke: statistics. And it's not to minimize the tragedy of the loss of the three gentlemen from Texas who were, who were making the news.

[00:24:49] But there are a lot of people that reach the end of their lives there unexpectedly, and it's- Mm-hmm ... it's a dangerous place to visit, and you gotta be ready. But the question is, where is the line between the [00:25:00] personal responsibility and the institutional responsibility? So...

[00:25:03] Joe Dana: Yeah. And if you, and if you hear the trails supervisor Of the canyon, you know.

[00:25:09] The, the, the interview is really fascinating. I'd recommend anyone listen to it. It's the Grand Canyon hiker dude March, early March. He made it clear that, you know, they wanted to be able to get a lot of work done, and it would be difficult having the trail open. There, there was this whole other issue just of simply needing to upgrade it and improve it, you know.

[00:25:27] Because in 2023, I believe, they closed it for two months to, you know, shore up I think more than a dozen retaining walls and- Mm-hmm ... they'd had some rock slides and things then. And so they've closed it before, and they've closed it deliberately for specifically to be able to just, from an engineering standpoint, you know, get in there with teams to maintain the trail and repair and whatnot.

[00:25:49] So there's also just that aspect which Now I'm sure they'll have a lot more time because I don't think there's gonna be nearly the same pressure [00:26:00] to open things up as quickly. We'll see, I guess. We'll find out. But yeah, I think they also wanted to be able to... Like I mentioned earlier, there was a, there was a hope that there would be sort of a longer term holistic sort of renovation of the North Rim and trail do- and doing it in a way that may be even, you know, more suitable for future potential extreme flooding and whatnot.

[00:26:22] And so they didn't have an opportunity to even attempt any of that yet, and we'll see moving forward, right?

[00:26:30] Chris Clarke: Yeah. One last question, and you've been very generous with your time. We're about three minutes over the amount of time you said you had. And we will put links to all the different podcasts and your own coverage in the show notes, but where can people find more of your work?

[00:26:44] Joe Dana: Yeah. You just follow me on Instagram, JoeDanaReports, or Facebook or 12news.com, and, and yeah, you can jump on, jump online or on the socials. I, I have a TikTok account. So i- in different ways I'll put out [00:27:00] different types of stories a- as I cover them. And, and I should say too, this is actually a great time to get up there.

[00:27:06] I know talking to head of the Association of the 12 Rafting Outfitters and some other business owners up there, Jacob Lake Inn, awesome spot on the North Rim to stay a night or two. They've got great deals right now. I know they've ... There's just been a ton of cancellations. So anyone in this region, you know, if you're looking for a nice getaway, it's gonna be incredible weather.

[00:27:28] You know, again, the, the Grand Canyon's open. Right. Amenities are open. Day use is open on the South Rim, and Tusayan has the hotels open. Obviously now the, the water problem's right at the rim-

[00:27:40] Chris Clarke: Yeah ...

[00:27:40] Joe Dana: in Grand Canyon Village, but you can still spend the days there. You just can't stay overnight, you know, at El Tovar or the cabins, right?

[00:27:48] There are a couple of camping grounds there at the canyon that are open. So, you know, they really need help. If, if, if there's ever a time to, you know, get a, make a trip up there and [00:28:00] support the local economy there, this is the time to do it.

[00:28:03] Chris Clarke: Okay, you heard him folks. Make those reservations.

[00:28:06] Joe Dana: Yes.

[00:28:07] Chris Clarke: Joe Dana, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:28:09] It's great to talk to you, and keep up the good work. It's been really informative.

[00:28:14] Joe Dana: All right. Thank you. Great to meet you, and I hope someday you get back to the Box and back to Bright Angel Creek.

[00:28:20] Chris Clarke: Yeah. It's, I think I have a window of about 10 more years where I'm gonna be able to do that kind of hike.

[00:28:25] Joe Dana: All right. Sounds like 10 more trips at least. Yep.

[00:28:52] Chris Clarke: Thanks again to Joe Dana for joining us to talk about this topic. You can find more of Joe's work at 12news.com. That's [00:29:00] 1-2-news.com. It's nice to see that somebody else out there has a domain name with numerals in it. Check out our show notes or our episode page for more information on where else you can find Joe's work.

[00:29:11] And again, thanks to Wendy Campbell for becoming our newest donor. And again, again, 90milesfromneedles.com/donate if you want to add to the slowly growing number of people who are making this podcast possible by donating to the Desert Advocacy Media Network, our nonprofit mothership. We are still accepting applications for our Fellowship for Desert Reporting until October 15th.

[00:29:36] We are looking for good stories that people have to tell and people with interest in telling them in a way that can reach people. You don't need to be a professional journalist, though that certainly isn't an impediment. Each fellow will be paid 1,250 bucks to develop a story for us for the podcast or for our website or for some other venue.

[00:29:58] We're happy to talk about [00:30:00] possibilities. You can learn more at our fellowship page at T-H-E-D-A-M-N.org, thedamn.org/fellowship It's starting to hint at fall here. We had a brief spell of cool. It was actually nice enough to walk outside in the high 70s without the dog bursting into flame. Jack sure enjoyed it.

[00:30:23] And sadly, the heat has come back, and the little bit of rain we got over the last few days has added to the humidity. So it's trials and tribulations here in the Mojave Desert. Not nearly as tribulation-y as monsoon flash floods scouring the Four Corners area and Grand Canyon and Zion and... But we gotta take what tribulations we can get.

[00:30:47] I'm hoping that it will have cooled down significantly before my trip to El Paso in November, taking the podcast on the road again to get to the Chihuahuan Desert Symposium. [00:31:00] Maybe I'll see you there. Look in the show notes for more info about that symposium, and I will see you at the next Watering Hole

[00:31:12] Joe Geoffrey: And that brings us to the end of this episode of 90 Miles From Needles, the desert protection podcast. You can find show notes for this episode along with links and background at ninetymilesfromneedles.com. We're also on social media. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Bluesky, and Threads. Just search for 90 Miles From Needles.

[00:31:39] And if you'd like a more direct line, you can reach us on Signal at A90MFN.67. If you'd like to support the show, you can make a donation of whatever size and frequency feels right to you at ninetymilesfromneedles.com/donate. [00:32:00] Listener support is what makes this podcast possible. Our voiceover is by Joe Geoffrey.

[00:32:05] Podcast artwork is by Martin Mancha. Nature sounds are recorded by Fred Bell. Our theme song, Moody Western, is by Brightside Studio, with additional music licensed from independent artists.

[00:32:22] Chris Clarke: Other music in this episode is by PremiumBeat and Atlas Tune[00:33:00]

[00:33:18] Joe Geoffrey: Miles from Needles is a production of the Desert Advocacy Media [00:34:00] Network

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